We now have two chapters left. Chapter 20 was tough, but this morning we’ll blow everybody’s mind too. Revelation 21 – did anyone read it before hand? No? That’s fine. You may have heard me tell a story before about teaching Revelation down in Artesia and the last week was Revelation 21. I asked everyone to read it 2-3 times during the week, and read it very carefully. When I came in on Sunday morning and asked what is the new Jerusalem? It was very obvious that only one person had read the chapter. So let’s read the first part of it here, then we’ll discuss it.

Q: You’re not going to make the case that, not getting distracted in all this, this could still yet be future to us, a future millennial….

A: It was certainly future to Isaiah’s time. About 700 years future to Isaiah’s time because Christ hadn’t come yet.  

C: Well it’s not too much of a stretch to say it’s the lion that eating the straw, that he’s not going to be attacking the lamb.

R: Right.  

Q: I’m going to answer the question with a question. How do we know that this passage from Isaiah is being literal. That he couldn’t just be using language that we can understand like in other areas where God can hear and God can see. This is terminology that we can understand.

A: He may be. Let me toss it back at you with a question. If He’s talking about things in principle, which I think He is by the way, how is it if He’s talking about the new heavens and the new earth in a futuristic end of the world eternity sense, people still die? And they bear children. Other Scriptures tell us clearly that in heaven they do not marry. They’re like angels.

C: You’re confusing this by saying that because these things are still happening, it can’t be some futuristic new heaven and new earth…

R: I’m saying it can’t be the eternal state.

Q: You’re saying that this has to be referring to right now?

A: I’m saying it must be a new heaven and a new earth in the sense of something dramatically different from what Isaiah knew. What Isaiah’s people knew. That dramatically different thing was the church. When we look at a new heaven and a new earth, we think literally, and we think of the new heavens. Something radically different from what we’re used to up in the sky. A new earth; something radically different from that which we walk around upon. But that’s not what the Jews would have thought. To them a new heavens and a new earth was a new world order, to use a popular phrase of a few years ago. It was the fact that the heavens and earth that they knew, was going to be dramatically changed. Which is actually what we see happening in 70 AD. The world of the Jews was destroyed in 70 AD. They no longer had the temple, they no longer had their genealogy, they no longer had their structure, they no longer had their religion. It was dramatically changed in that one event, and something new and different came upon the scene.  

Q: Are you saying that Revelation 21 is also talking about the events of 70 AD?

A: Yes, in a sense; I’m saying it’s talking about the church and the dramatic thing that happened with the church upon the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.

Q: And it’s talking about the period of time that we’re in right now?

A: Yes. Absolutely. It’s talking about the church.

Q: Okay. You’re using Isaiah 65 to disprove the idea of a literal new heaven and a new earth, right…

A: Yes.

Q: But if the terminology there is just symbolic, and it’s just describing something that’s better or something that might be perfect or great, then it really doesn’t disprove that, right?

A: No. Listen, I’m not trying to say you’ve got to believe me. Please get that through you head.

Q: I just want to make sure I’m following this. If I’m thinking right. That in order for it to disprove that, this has to be, ‘cause you’re saying ‘well people are still dying.’ You’re saying that’s got to be literal, you’re saying there’s something wrong there.

A: Yeah.

Q: You saying whether it’s symbolic or not, just the idea of death…

A: Even if it were symbolic, how could we fit the symbology of death into something that was referring to the eternal state? That’s an impossibility. They don’t go together. See we tend to think of the new heaven and the new earth as the eternal state. Isaiah on the other hand was clearly talking about something other than the eternal state when he used the phrase ‘a new heavens and a new earth’ because he’s talking about people living and dying, and babies being born. You follow?  

C: It would seem incredible to me to think that they would make those kind of references to people dying and people being born if they didn’t intend for us to understand it as not the eternal state.

R: Right.

C: ‘Cause it would take a lot more… If you’re up here saying ‘well this is the eternal state’ it would take a lot more of us turning our brain off and go ‘Oh, he’s says this is the eternal state so we’ll ignore the fact that people are dying.’ It would take a greater leap.  

            Chilton points out: “Moreover, the phrase heaven and earth in this context does not as John Owen pointed out, refer to the physical heaven and the physical world, but to the world order. The religious organization of the world. The “house” or “temple” God builds in which He is worshipped. The consistent message of the New Testament is that the house of the new covenant over which Jesus presides as apostle and high priest, is infinitely superior to the house of the old covenant presided over by Moses.” He sites several Scriptures there. “In fact, as the writers of the Hebrews insist, the world to come “has come.” It is the present salvation brought in by the Son of God in the last days, Hebrews 1:1-25. In this specific sense, righteousness does dwell in heaven and in earth.”

            Now, I don’t know whether there’s going to be a real place like this or not. I can tell you that what God says about heaven is that it is so far above what we can even imagine, we can’t even conceive of the reality of heaven. But, what John is clearly saying here in Revelation, is that the church is the new Jerusalem.  

A: Where are you right now?

Q: In Revelation…

A: No. Where are you in reality, right now? Ephesians 2 reality. You are made alive together with Christ. You have been raised up together with Him and we have been seated together with Him at the right hand of God the Father. In God’s reality, we as Christians, are in fact in heaven, where there is no more tears.  

Q: Is the death here like back in Genesis where God said on the day that you eat of this fruit you will die? They didn’t physically… I’m thinking that death is not exactly… it’s more spiritual.

A: In Isaiah you’re talking about?

Q: No. I’m talking about here where it says there’s no more death.

A: Okay. Is there any death for Christians? No. We have eternal life. He who believes in the Son HAS, present tense. Has passed from death into life. We do not face death. There is no more death for those who are in Christ Jesus. That’s why as Chilton points out there’s a very big difference between pagan funerals and Christian funerals. Christian funerals are a celebration that this person has gone home to be with the Lord.  

C: The apostles, it blows me away, it’s probably one of the most difficult passages for me because they rejoiced that they were counted worthy to suffer for the cause of Christ. It’s tough for me.

R: They rejoiced! It’s tough for all of us! See, we tend to think in terms of this world. We don’t focus on the other world. Augustine wrote a book about the Tale of Two Cities, the original Tale of Two Cities, the city of man and the city of God. We live in the city of man, but we are citizens of the city of God. That’s what we’ve got to focus on. That’s why Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:21 act as ambassadors for Christ. That’s the sense of the original. Become, act, behave, because you are ambassadors. This is not our country. We are visitors here. We are strangers in a strange land, to quote Heinlein’s improper quote of the Old Testament.  

C: (inaudible) a death or two is what we talked about the chapter before and then talking about the second death.

R: Yeah. It all fits together, doesn’t it. He talks about the fact here that those who are in the city, there is no second death. Consistent with what Paul is saying, with what John is saying. We have passed from death to life. There is no more death for those who are in the church.

Q: I think I understand now. What I’d like you to help me understand though is if you’re going to use the fact that there’s death in Isaiah 65 to show that that is not talking about an eternal state and you’re saying that’s the same new heaven and new earth that we’re talking about in Revelation, how is it possible that you can pick out this and say because of there’s death, this proves it and then we look at the definition of Revelation and there is no death?

A: The context. What was Isaiah prophesying about? Some would answer he was prophesying about the eternal state. I’m saying if he was prophesying about the eternal state, why does he talk about death? How can that be? That’s contrary to other parts of Scripture. If Isaiah’s talking about the new heavens and the new earth,…

Q: So where does the parallel stop?

Q: So then he’s not talking about the same thing as in Revelation. It’s totally different?

A: I lost you there, I’m sorry. I’m saying he’s prophesying about the church and he’s talking… I see what the problem is, what you’re saying. How do I do this?

C: Can I quote a Scripture that’s interesting while you …

R: Yes, please.

R: Yes. Again, consistent with what Revelation is saying. It’s a new creation. Old things have passed away.

            What I’m saying, and I don’t know how to answer your question directly, I’m saying that I don’t think Revelation can be talking about the eternal state. Clearly, it is talking about the church. There’s no question about that. I defy anybody to say that that passage in Revelation 21 is not talking about the church.  

Q: Is that the popular belief? That it’s talking about the church?

A: No. As I said, I was telling a pastor friend of mine who had been a pastor for 17 years, we were out sailing on a Saturday and I was telling him out teaching this class in Artesia and telling him about having people read Revelation 21, and that it was obvious that only one person had read it because this young man about 18 or 19 said “It’s the church.” Sandy said, “Oh, OK.” I’m carrying on a conversation, didn’t bat an eyelash. He calls me up at 6:30 on Sunday morning, laughing like crazy. He said, “I’m sitting here having my breakfast and picked up my Bible and turned to Revelation 21.” He said, “You’re right. I didn’t know that. I’ve never noticed that in all my years as a minister.” Because you see we have accepted the fact that people have told us that this incredible description here in Revelation 21 is of the eternal city coming down from God. This is what we’re going to be living in in heaven. Very clearly that’s not what it’s talking about. It’s talking about the church.  

Q: The first earth, in the first … was that like the new covenant?

A: Yes. Hebrews 8. The old covenant was with the Jews. The new covenant is with the world through Christ.  

Q: Is then there is going to be no new heaven and new earth physically?

A: When you say physically…

Q: Peter says that the elements of this earth will melt away… Is Peter also talking about the old order when he talks about that?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay, and I don’t have a problem with that. It’s just that, I guess I’ve heard before I think from Gentry that thought there will be a new heaven and a new earth.

A: There will be a new state of things that we can’t even imagine.

Q: Gentry said it will be a physical, and you said that you believe…

A: I think it will be. I don’t think we’re going to be floating around in some metaphysical state.

C: Jesus said ‘behold my hand.’

R: Jesus is incarnate. He’s real.  

C: …Psalm 23 and a commentary by Spurgeon and it struck me when it says ‘When I pass through the valley of the shadow of death,” He made a big point about it being a shadow. We pass through the death that we experience.

R: Exactly, good point. That’s what we’re talking about here.

C: I think that the fact that the apostle Paul is using the very same terminology that John is using here, the former things go away, the new creation, there’s consistency with all the New Testament writers. That speaks to me.

R: Amen. The consistency is what we’re looking at. The fact that it doesn’t have to be so discontinuous. This is so incredible.

Q: They don’t really…I mean they die, but they’re not physically…

R: In the sense of the second death, eternal state. They are alive.  

Q: So in Isaiah 65, are you going to use the same argument for the strongman being bound that although all evil isn’t done away with and things aren’t perfect, it’s a lot better. That Satan’s power has been restrained.

A: Yes, I think that’s a good analogy.

A: Yes, absolutely. You got it!

C: He catches on good!

C: I’m not agreeing with it, I’m just making sure I follow it.

C: Sounds like things haven’t changed much for the serpent.

R: No. Things have not changed for the serpent.  

C: I always argue with people. They say well things are really bad as far as spiritual, but when you look at it physically on the earth, things have changed dramatically from the Middle Ages. Things have gotten better to some extent, and yet…

C: And a biblical Christian ethic really pervades the world of what is right and what is wrong in more cultures now than before. Atrocities and all that are judged by what we would consider a biblical standard of injustice to people whereas in the past people were slaughterers, this and that and cultures didn’t blink an eye. Now, most cultures are abhorred to see these atrocities.

Q: I find it interesting that that part we can see that it’s not literal, we are the stones being built up. Obviously He is the chief cornerstone, literally. Just one question – this bugs me. Who are the twelve apostles all together? Is that Mathias?

A: Yes. The original 13 minus 1. How many apostles were there? At least 19 that we can name. Acts 14:4 and 14 Barnabus was an apostle; Romans 1:1 Paul is an apostle; Romans 16:7 Andronicas and Junias were apostles; 1 Corinthians 4:6-11 Apollos was an apostle; Philippians 2:25 Epaphroditus was an apostle; 1 Thessalonians 1:1 Silvanus and Timothy were apostles; Galatians 1:19 James the Lord’s brother was an apostle. So there are at least 19 that are named in Scripture who are apostles. But the twelve, and by the way the Scripture normally designates them as ‘the twelve’ so that’s what’s being talked about here.  

C: That depends on how long the world goes on, because if we’ve got a long time

R: Actually again, I don’t think it’s talking about a literal city. I think very clearly that it’s talking about the church as we saw in verse 9 & 10.  

    Chilton says, “There’s another intriguing point about this verse (going back to verse 12 & 13). St. John tells us that the gates are literally from the east, from the north, from the south and from the west giving as Sweet (another commentator) suggests the picture of many coming from the four points of the compass.” Again we see the consistency with Scripture. That people will come from the four corners of the earth into the church. That God is going to gather from the four corners of the earth His people together in the church. “As St. John later shows the nations will walk by the city’s light. The kings of the earth will bring their wealth into her and her gates will always be open to them.

Q: Wouldn’t they be just saying that the rightness, as we understand it, the immense, the fact that everyone will be walking.

A: You can rationalize anything, but I’m suggesting that if we read what it really says, it says that the Gentiles shall walk by the light of the new Jerusalem. What is the new Jerusalem? The church. The Gentiles walk by the light of the church. Stuart was just saying that things in the world are changing. That we now consider the atrocities going on in other countries as abominable and we want to do something about it. Even other nations that are not very godly in the nationalistic sense recognize that. The church is an influence in the world.  

Q: Couldn’t you read it, what is honorable and glorious from those nations is what’s brought into the kingdom?

A: I can read it any way I want to. But if I’m reading what it says, then I’m left with a paradox because God clearly teaches that there is nothing ungodly in heaven. Yet this says that the new Jerusalem is open to the ungodly, to the nations, that they walk by the light of the new Jerusalem.

C: It’s saying the nations of those who are saved.

R: No, that’s not what it says at all. Where do you read that?

C: Verse 24.

R: I don’t read that. It says And the nations shall walk by its light, and the kings of the earth…

R: (Sigh…)

C: The New King James. The inspired version, man. That’s the official version.

R: No, unfortunately it’s not.

C: You don’t like the New King James?

R: Yes, I like the New King James. I just don’t like some of the things translators do. I like it when they don’t change the original language to fit to theology.

Q: That’s not supposed to be there?

A: No, strike that out, cross that out. In the Greek, it is not there. It is the nations, the Gentiles.  

We’re out of time, so we’ll continue on with this next week.