Last week we talked about the first resurrection. Remember in Revelation 20 verse 4 it talks about those who lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (5) The rest of the dead did not live until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. We’ll talk a little bit more about that in regard to the second death also. (6) Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

            I’ve said all along that I believe the thousand years is not a literal thousand years. Again, remember that Revelation is a book of signs and symbols and if you go back just to Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him… (20) And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet… and they were thrown into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. Very obviously those are signs and symbols. It’s not a literal beast that’s thrown into a literal lake of fire. Remember we’ve said all along that the beast was Rome, the political entity and the false prophet was Israel, the apostate church prophesying in league with the Roman empire and that that’s what is in view.

            So suddenly now in Revelation chapter 20, why in the world would we focus on the thousand years, which is only mentioned five times by the way in the whole Bible, and then say that’s a literal thousand years. I don’t think that makes a whole lot of sense. In addition, who are the “they” who lived and reigned with Christ? The saints, very obviously. It is the saints, those who had not received the mark of the beast or worshipped his image and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Who are the rest of the dead? The wicked. So what you see here in Revelation is a contrast between the saints who are alive and reigning with Christ, and remember that Paul says in Ephesians 2 we were made alive together with Him, we were raised up together with Him and we are seated together with Him at the right hand of God. So the saints are in fact right now, reigning with God. You and I who believe in Jesus Christ in God’s reality remember, are at the right hand of God the Father. Right now reigning with Christ. That means that the thousand years is right now! We’re in it! We’re living it. So therefore, it’s obviously been more than a thousand calendar years since Christ. So it very obviously to me, must be symbolic.

             (6) Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. Again, what is John telling us, if anybody can remember back that far, in Revelation chapter 1 about the saints? He says we’re saints. Verse 6: and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father; to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. So we are priests. We are a kingdom of priests. He has made us to be… past tense. So how in the world then when John in Revelation 20 says we are priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years, how can we still think of that as future? He’s already told us in chapter 1 that it’s present tense. Paul talks about we are a kingdom of priests, we are more than conquerors. Throughout the New Testament you see this idea that Christians are a kingdom of priests. Hebrews, another place where that is brought out. So what you see here is exactly what’s being taught in the rest of the Bible.

Q: I agree, but I wouldn’t say that that verse is pushing someone with a contrary view into a corner of saying that before that time you weren’t priests, so that really doesn’t…

A: No, I’m not saying that at all. I’m not saying that there’s one particular verse that would push anybody into a corner.

Q: They could have been priests the whole time and now its just being restated that they’re priests and so God’s identified them as being…

A: I’m just pointing out that Revelation1:6 says He has made, past tense, us to be priests. The rest of Scripture talks about we have been made a kingdom of priests, a holy nation. So I’m just trying to point out here’s another peg that says this is happening right now. It’s not a futuristic thing.

C: There’s too many… if you look at the time text passages where like it says here He has made, past tense. But if I’m just sitting here reading it, not knowing the Greek and all that, at the time of his writing it, at the present time they are a kingdom, they are priests and Jesus the other text is saying, the kingdom of God has come upon you, present tense. It’s in that time, not yet future.

R: Right. If we take all of this together, then we see that it’s not talking about some future reign of Christ, it’s talking about the saints reigning with Christ presently. So therefore the thousand years must be in progress.

Q: Do you have something other than… as far as for the thousand years… what you said earlier that would only be based on previous assumptions, where this period is happening right now.

A: There’s no verse that says definitively this is a sign or symbol. It’s simply that since we’re in a book of signs and symbols, since we’re in a particular passage of signs and symbols, it doesn’t seem logical to me to say okay, this one particular thing in this whole group of signs and symbols is literal. It think it can be explained by understanding that ten is a perfect number according to the Jewish thinking and so ten times ten times ten, three is complete, unity. So it’s God’s own perfect timing that’s being talked about here. That God will come back when God will come back. That the thousand years will end when God is ready for it to end.

Q: You made the comment that there’s no reason to take it literally, now when you’re talking about the destruction of Jerusalem, and we read in the previous chapters and you’re relating these things to what happened historically, now if those things never happened historically, would we also have no reason to take those literally? Those could be spiritual and wholly symbolic?

A: Well we can speculate about a lot of things. But the point is that if I can peg an historical event to something in Scripture…

Q: Yeah, if this is in the future then that’s obviously why you can’t…

A: Why I can’t peg it, exactly. But I’m just saying that when I look at for instance, the hailstones of 100 pounds weight raining down upon Jerusalem, and I can go back and read in Josephus that the Romans were throwing ballista stones painted white which weighed a hundred pounds. That pretty definitively to me is what’s being talked about there. I can peg that on a historical event. So then I can say this is probably what’s being talked about when it talks about these huge hailstones raining down upon Jerusalem. That it’s the Roman ballista stones that were in view. I’m not saying that it’s not symbolic. Very clearly it says hailstones. It’s symbolic in that they weren’t literal hailstones, but they were symbolic of the white stones that were being poured down upon Jerusalem by the hand of God.

C: For me it’s always the context that guides it because if Jesus says ‘Woe to you, woe to you upon this generation,’ there’s no room for metaphors or symbolism or whatever. I don’t know how you could more clearly say you did this, you did that and you’re going to pay for it. But when, like you said, these other passages that are so obviously symbolic…

R: I don’t think I can stand up here and say the thousand years is absolutely not, no way, literal. I don’t think it’s literal. That’s my personal opinion. But I’m not gonna say to someone who believes it’s literal that they don’t understand the Bible and they’re not Christian. Because I can’t say it definitively. I think in the context, that very clearly the thousand years is symbolic because all of the rest of the stuff around it is symbolic.

C: Any other interpretation to me would make absolutely no sense. You just read that He says that we reign with Him, you just read from Ephesians that we are raised with Him, we reign with Him. The Scripture all corroborates.

R: Right. It corroborates itself.

            20:7 And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, (8) and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. (9) And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. (10) And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

            Here, there’s a whole lot of stuff beginning way back when, but basically with Hal Lindsay The Late Great Planet Earth, and the pre-millennial dispensational movement. God and Magog. Who are Gog and Magog? Most people believe it’s the Soviet Union. Why do they believe that it’s the Soviet Union? [R:] Oh I read this – because Gog is translated ‘Rosh’ and just look at how close ‘rosh’ is to Russia so it must be that it means Russia.

R: Right. Turn back to Ezekiel 38:1-2 And the word of the Lord came to me (Ezekiel) saying, (2) Son of man, set your face toward Gog of the land of Magog, and the New American Standard reads the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy against him. So the theory is that Gog is the prince of Rosh, which is obviously Russia. Not only that, but Tubal is Tobolsk in Russia and it talks about Gomer down in verse 6: Gomer with all its troops; must obviously be Germany. So the theory is that Soviet Russia is going to join together with all these other countries, form an alliance, and come and invade the Holy Land, and that’s the final battle. Well, there’s a real problem with that because in Hebrew,  Ezekiel 38:2 says Son of man, set your face toward Gog of the land of Magog – let me give you a real quick Hebrew lesson here – this word car is Rosh and this word acn is Nasig in Hebrew. This word acn means prince. Remember that Hebrew reads right to left. They also did a lot of stuff like Spanish. How do you say white house in Spanish? You say Casa Blanca – house white. So the adjective follows the noun. That’s exactly what you see here. The Prince and Rosh in Hebrew. It’s not Prince of Rosh, it’s the Chief Prince. Everywhere else in the Bible, in Hebrew, Rosh means ‘Head or Chief.’ So it’s not talking about the Prince of Rosh. It’s talking about the head Prince, the Chief Prince of Meshech and Tubal.

C: I have an ax to grind here too if you’ll let me. This drives me crazy. If you read through here and this is their key Scripture that the dispensationalists want to refer you to and they say that they’re literalists, it just kills me that they have people having battled on horses. When they’re done with the battle they burned the weapons. So if this is some future battle, we’re going to fight it on horses, they’re going to have wooden instruments of warfare, and to talk to somebody – one dispensationalist that I knew very well – a dear Christian brother – but it was just amazing. He told me that scientists told him that there was going to be something that came over the earth, some kind of radioactive thing that would wipe out all of the United States military and render it so that warfare would revert back to the stones. He had a scientist from NASA that told him this was true and that this was literally going to be fulfilled. The final kicker to all this is that they’re going to literally rebuild the temple and literally offer sacrifices in it, in this text. You got to really want to believe it, to believe it.

R: The point is that if you have a theology, then you must interpret Scripture to fulfill the theology. If you build your theology from Scripture, you’re going to get a very different point of view. That’s why I keep telling people read the Scripture. Don’t listen to what someone else tells you. Go back and look at what does Scripture really say. If you do that, you’re going to find that none of this futuristic stuff really fits. It doesn’t work. Now granted, you’re at a disadvantage because even in the New American Standard, which is a superb translation and the most literal translation, it’s very obvious that the translation committee was affected by the premillennial point of view. That Gog was the Prince of Rosh, and that’s not what the Hebrew says.

Q: I know that back in the middle ages when Bibles were translated, they weren’t as good as we have now. They didn’t have all the… but would they have less? If you went back, would you have less of a Bible?

A: I don’t know the answer to that. I’d have to go back and look. Basically, the Hebrew and Greek are fine in most cases. It’s only the translations where the problem comes in. If everybody read Hebrew and Greek, we wouldn’t have a problem because it’s very clear in the Hebrew and Greek. That’s why I went back to Daniel 9 at the beginning of this class almost a year ago, and talked about the abomination of desolation and the one who makes desolate. I don’t know if you were here then, but in Daniel 9 there are two Hebrew words which are both different in the Hebrew. One is a noun and one’s a participle. In the translation, they’re both translated as a participle. It’s tragic because people have to accept what’s in the Bible unless they have someone who can point out these things to them and it colors what we think the Bible says. Whereas if we could read Hebrew and Greek, it would be very obvious that that’s not what it’s saying at all.

Q: Is that the Chief Prince of something?

A: It’s the Chief Prince of Meshech and Tubal. That is the correct interpretation.

            Let me quickly read you something from Chilton:  “The expression Gog and Magog does not and never did refer to Russia. That has been entirely made up from whole cloth and simply repeated so many times that many have assumed it to be true. All sensible reasons for this interpretation are based on a peculiar reading of Ezekiel 38:3 which speaks of Gog, the Chief Prince of Meshech and Tubal. The word ‘Chief’ is in the Hebrew ‘Rosh.’ Some have therefore translated the text as Gog, the Prince of Rosh. Rosh sounds something like Russia, therefore Gog is the Prince or Premier of Russia. Unfortunately for this ingenious interpretation, Rosh simply means ‘Head’ and is used over 600 times in the Old Testament, never meaning Russia. Those who hold that Gog, a name supposedly derived from Soviet Georgia, since they both start with ‘G’, is the Soviet premier generally make the further claim that Meshech is really Moscow, they sound a lot alike. Tubal is Tobolsk and Gomer of Ezekiel 38:6 is Germany. It his very helpful examination of this issue, Ralph Woodrow comments this is doubtful. Moscow comes from Muscovites and is a Finish name, not Russian. Moscow is first mentioned in ancient documents in 1147 AD, (more than a thousand years after Christ) when it was a small village. Some think Tubal means Tobolsk, but this is only a similarity in sound. Tobolsk was founded in 1587 AD. Some think Gomer means Germany. Its true the words Gomer and Germany both begin with a G, so does Guesswork. Woodrow goes on to give reasons why the war of Gog and Magog spoken of in Revelation cannot be identical to that prophesied in Ezekiel. Number 1, in Ezekiel Gog is a Prince. In Revelation Gog is a nation. Two different things. In Ezekiel Gog is spoken of as coming against Israel with people from various countries around Israel. In Revelation Gog and Magog are pictured as nations in the four corners of the earth and numerous as the sands in the sea. In Ezekiel Gog and its troops come against Israel. A people who have returned from captivity and are dwelling without walls. In Revelation Gog and Magog go up on the breadth of the earth and encompass the city of the saints. In Ezekiel the enemy is Gog of the land of Magog, in Revelation Gog and Magog. In Ezekiel, Gog’s troops are defeated in Israel and the people burn the remaining weapons for seven years. In Revelation Gog and Magog are destroyed by fire from God out of heaven. Wooden weapons would be destroyed then and there.” He goes on to talk about the imagery of Revelation in regard to Sodom and Babylon and the woman.

Q: Is there any association with the Gog of Revelation 20 and the Gog in Ezekiel 38?

A: Only in… Chilton goes on to say: “As Caird points out in Jewish writings, Gog and Magog was a frequent, standard expression for the rebellious nations of Psalm II which gathered together against the Lord and against His anointed. Austin Farrar, another commentator, comments ‘St. John takes the story from Ezekiel and leaves the symbol undecoded. St. John says that the nations are gentiles beguiled by Satan are in the four corners of the earth and perhaps he means this, that the unreconciled are tucked away in lands removed from the sinner.’ “ So what he’s saying here is that Gog and Magog is a symbolic name for all of those who are against Christ. It’s not a specific nation. People who try to make Revelation literal, and go back and pick up Ezekiel, they’re listening to what people had told them and they’re not looking at what it actually says.

Q: It has to have some connection to Ezekiel, right?

A: No.

Q: Then why does Babylon used in Revelation have a connection to all the rest of Scripture?

A: In the same way that it has a connection to Gog. What is Babylon in Scripture? Wicked. It’s the center of wickedness, and that’s exactly what you see in Revelation, that it’s the center of wickedness.  

C: Right. If when we talk about hermeneutics we say place your mind in the mindset of the original intended reader, the original intended reader is who and then what is their understanding of Gog and Magog.

R: Again, I would have to fall back with what Farrar says. What you see is Gog and Magog are used as symbols in Jewish writing for ungodly peoples.

Q: Jewish people were reading this?

A: Yes, Jewish Christians were reading this.

Q: Jewish Christians – and they’re thinking is that they see Gog and Magog…

A: They’re not thinking of a literal country. I think that would be very foreign to them. That they would understand it as a symbol for an unregenerate people. People hostile to God. They would know their Old Testament history and know that Gog was destroyed. They wouldn’t think of it as a country in existence or one that would come into existence.

            There is a situation here that we need to look at because what does it say in verse 7? …Satan will be released… and what have I been saying about Satan during this period of time? He’s bound. He was bound in verse 2 of chapter 20 and Jesus says the strongman is bound. Jesus’ life and death and resurrection bound the power of Satan so that the power of the gospel could go forth. Now there will be a time when that restraint against Satan will be released and Satan will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, … to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. So sometime, and this is one of the very few parts of Revelation that I think are actually future, is that sometime prior to the time in which we are living, Satan will be released so that he can deceive nations. Now, I’m just throwing this out – I’m not playing prophet here and I’m not saying this is true – but we see a lot of wickedness in the world right now and we see a lot of resistance to the gospel in some areas right now, other areas are not. Africa – the gospel is exploding… Asia… So I’m not suggesting that Satan has been released. I’m just suggesting that may be what we’re seeing in that particularly in America, we see a lot of wickedness going on. A lot of public wickedness. Jan rented a couple of movies for our grandson Jeremiah when he was here this week and they were like “G” movies or something and right off the bat there’s really bad language. She’s going ‘Wow! What’s going on?” Well, it’s culture. It’s the way this culture is. So I’m not suggesting that Satan has been released, but that’s the kind of thing that I think we’ll see when Satan is released.

            Notice “the war.” They are gathering them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. (9) And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, What is the “beloved city?” Jerusalem. And what happened? [R: Fire came down from heaven and devoured it?] Right! Is there a cataclysmic battle where the forces of evil and the forces of good are battling it out? Is that what it says? No. That’s not what it says at all.

Q: If God was done with His Jews, there’s no separate way He’s going to deal with Jews in the future or Israel, we’re Israel, and Jerusalem was destroyed, then why is he still referring back to what is going to be in the future – referring back to that city and setting it up as something special or unique?

A: Can you hold that question until we get to Revelation 21? Because I think Revelation 21 will answer that question. I don’t mean to put you off, you’ve got a point, but I think Revelation 21 will answer that question for you.

             (9)…and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. There was no battle. God destroyed the unbelievers. (10) And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Very clear.

Q: I’ve got two questions. One is, what’s the difference between the fire coming down and the battle at Armageddon that we talked about earlier? And what’s the difference between prison and the lake of fire?

A: The lake of fire we’re told, which we were supposed to get to at the end of this lesson and I don’t think we’re going to, is the second death. The second death – let me just jump ahead here a little bit – we talked about the first resurrection which is Spiritual. When were we who believe first resurrected? At baptism – regeneration. Baptism is a symbol of that resurrection, of that first resurrection.  

Q: Is there particular Scripture that talks of our rebirth as being a resurrection?

A: Yes. Ephesians 2. We were made alive together with Him. We were raised up together with Him. There are lots of verses that talk about that.

Q: Does it specifically use the terminology ‘resurrection’?

A: Raised up together with. It doesn’t use the word resurrection, but clearly that’s the idea in Ephesians 2.

            So, the Christians participate in the first resurrection and they also participate in the second resurrection. We all go through the second resurrection. We are changed and given immortality, Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15. We are all changed, even the dead in Christ, or those who are alive in Christ. We are changed. We put off mortality and put on immortality. Put off corruption and put on incorruption. What then is the second death? The lake of fire? Damnation. The first death is spiritual in the sense of we are dead in our sins and trespasses. We’re born dead. We are all born dead because we’re born in sin and trespass. We were conceived in sin and iniquity. So everyone participates in the first death. Christians participate in the first resurrection, the ungodly do not. Christians participate in the second resurrection. The ungodly participate in the first death, and they participate in the second death. They are not alive. They never will be. They stay dead. Do they participate in the second resurrection? Yes. They are also resurrected and they put off mortality if you will, and put on immortality and they will be tormented forever and ever.

C: We interpret Matthew 25, the sheep and the goats, to be one simultaneous resurrection.

R: Absolutely. There’s only one resurrection. 

Q: Let me ask you another question here. Is that the same battle at Armageddon? Are we talking about the same thing here?

A: Yes. We’re talking about God’s victory. God is the one who overcomes the forces of evil.

Q: Isn’t this a recurring theme?

A: Yes. It’s a theme. Remember that Hebrew thought was parallel. It’s not linear. We tend to read it and we say the battle of Armageddon was two chapters ago and now there’s another battle. No. It’s talking about the same thing.

Q: Then what’s the prison? When he’s released from prison?

A: He’s restrained. Remember he had a chain put around him in verse 2. That’s the prison. Imprisonment is restriction. It’s not a literal place that he is.  

C: Now that is chronological.

R: That’s he’s restrained and now he’s unrestrained? Yes. Absolutely. Very clearly that’s a time reference thing.

            (11) And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. (12) And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. (13) and the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

            Who is being judged at the great white throne judgment? The wicked! The dead! It’s not the living. It’s not the Christians. And what are they judged on the basis of? [R: Although He did have the two books open] That’s right. Why did He have the two books open? Why did He have the book of life open? To make sure they weren’t there. Absolutely. To show them they’re not in the book of life. See the Christians who are so concerned about I gotta stand before the great white throne judgment… Wrong! Christians don’t stand before the great white throne judgment.

Q: There’s only one book, right?

A: No. There’s two books. It says and books were opened… plural. …and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life;

Q: Three books, right?

A: Maybe multiple books.

            and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. Now what’s in the first books that are opened? The works of the dead. What’s in the book of life? The names of the saints, those who are saved. So very clearly what you see here is the ungodly are being judged for their deeds – what they did – which are all wicked, remember. Every thought is against Christ. If you don’t have a right relationship with Christ, everything you do is sinful. Proverbs in the King James says even the plowing of the wicked is sinful. And, they make sure their name is not in the book of life.

Q: Even an unbeliever that jumps on a hand grenade to save his brother…

A: Is doing something wicked. It was not done to the glory of God. It was done for his own glory and that’s a hard thing to understand. We hear about altruistic acts. The mother who jumps in front of a train and throws her kid out and is dead. If she is not a believer, she is not doing that for the right reason.

C: Maybe she worshipped that child. That child’s an idol.

R: Exactly. That child is more important to her than her own life. What should be more important to her? God. Now a Christian mother who does that, it’s a Godly act – before God.

C: Down here it’s harder to tell.

R: It’s harder to tell because we can’t look into someone’s heart and we can’t see whether or not that person is a Christian. So the acts to us seem to be good and in some instance they are. The person who builds a hospital who is an ungodly man and gives his fortune to run the hospital. That’s a good act. God is using even his wickedness, his focus on building this monument to himself for his own glory, God uses that for the good of His own people.  

C: It says He stores up the wealth of the wicked…

R: For our benefit.  

            So (13) And the sea gave up the dead… Hades gave up the dead… they were judged according to their deeds. The dead or the ungodly, are judged according to their deeds. We are judged according to the deeds of Christ. We are not judged at the great white throne judgment. We are rewarded. Romans 8:1 says therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. We are not judged. We are not condemned. We have already been judged. Our sins were laid on Christ and when we stand before that great white throne, it is going to be so that everybody knows we deserve to go to heaven. Not by our own works, but by the works of Jesus Christ.  

Q: So verse 15 is the last event of… the last eschatological event for an unbeliever.

A: Yes. (14) And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. (15) And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. So those who are not in the book of life, go to eternal torment. The goats are separated out and they go away to eternal torment. The righteous, the sheep, go away to eternal…  

Q: A lot of time you talk to people who say that death isn’t a physical eternal thing. I find it interesting that, well here ‘lake of fire’ if you look right up to verse 10, there it says it’s forever and ever. A lot of people will try to tell you it’s not forever and ever.

A: Yes, they talk about annihilation. But you see the problem is that if you believe the wicked are not tormented forever and ever, you cannot possibly believe that the righteous are rewarded forever and ever.  

We’re out of time. Let’s pray.